Is this legal

[baddbaz]

Re: Is this legal

and if the person who buys them for you is over 18 and not a registered regular skirmisher they would be breaking the law by manufacturing a rif read the ukara and vcra rules and laws and you will see what i am on about ..

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

It will be very interesting to see what becomes of this because tbh depending on how you interpret the meaning of the defence it's arguable that Xsite are acting within the confines of the defence. The defence basically covers the sale of RIFs for the purpose of the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities, where 'permitted activities' is the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation. Now if you're selling a RIF to a parent for the sole purpose of them allowing their child to use it at skirmishes then you could certainly put forward a case for the sale having been made for the purpose set out in the VCRA.

[FullMetalAsh]

Re: Is this legal

and if the person who buys them for you is over 18 and not a registered regular skirmisher they would be breaking the law by manufacturing a rif read the ukara and vcra rules and laws and you will see what i am on about ..

They don't need to be registered, the whole idea of what I was saying as that the parents would buy an IF, give it to the minor (who has a junior membership) and as such can avail him/herself the defence as they are a regular airsofter. This would then make it perfectly legal for them to convert the IF into an RIF.

I know this is not what XSite are doing, but I'm saying it's an alternative, proving that there are perfectly legal ways of U18's possessing RIF's without them being sold them in a manner which may or may not be legal. And I've no doubt that if XSite are prevented from selling RIF's the way they do now, any U18's will simply do things this way. It's a little bit long winded, but it's within the law (as far as I'm aware).

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

and if the person who buys them for you is over 18 and not a registered regular skirmisher they would be breaking the law by manufacturing a rif read the ukara and vcra rules and laws and you will see what i am on about ..

There's nothing in the law that says you have to be a registered regular skirmisher to do anything. You can look through the VCRA at length and you won't find any reference to being a registered skirmisher. The whole concept of registered skirmisher has, afaik, arisen from UKARA's interpretation of the defence and how they think it easiest/best for retailers to demonstrate they fall within said defence.

[baddbaz]

Re: Is this legal

i dont have an issue at all with younger players playing or getting into the sport, unlike a few who will remain anonymous and think every kid is going to automaticticaly going to be a chav or brat . as long as the safety aspects and sportmanship are taught and where needed enforced . otherwise we will be looking for wheelchair friendly sites with easy access and meals on wheels deliveries twice a day ... its the fact that some kids, not all will get guns and never skirmish and cause havoc off site with them ,, which will make the goverment ban them completly .my son is 14 and new to the sport 6 skirmishes and i attend with him to show him the ropes and he sticks to the rules better than a lot of older players and takes his hits etc . but with out my input he would be like most kids and want to shoot anything and every thing .it is the fear of me taking away his access of guns that keeps him out of trouble. i was the same as a kid. got my brothers air rifle an took it to the woods an police took me back home and i got battered by my dad 4 it .different times and slacker police then. nowadays police react differently to guns .

[baddbaz]

Re: Is this legal

section 40 of the vcra states it is an offence to supply a minor with an imitation firearm ie rif

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

section 40 of the vcra states it is an offence to supply a minor with an imitation firearm ie rif

It states it's an offence for someone under the age of 18 to purchase an imitation firearm or for someone to sell an imitation firearm to someone under 18. It doesn't prevent the supply of an imitation firearm to a minor in other ways, e.g. by gifting. Anyway in the situation of Xsite they're not technically selling it to anyone under 18, they're selling to the parent who you would hope is over 18. It's interesting that the VCRA doesn't include provisions similar to those in the Licensing Act which make it an offence to buy alcohol on behalf of someone under the age of 18 and I wonder whether you could successfully argue that a seller has broken the law by selling an IF to a minor when the sale itself was made to someone over the age of 18 but acting on the minor's behalf.

[baddbaz]

Re: Is this legal

the big problem is the police .and their interpretation of an offence if one should happen and if the parents supervise the rif at home . if parents were all good ones and responsible for ther kids ,no problem .but as you know it only takes a minority to cause a problem and everyone suffers .the other problem is going to be unscrupulous retailers selling in the same way and not giving a shit what happens afterwards. just like off licences and corner shops with alcohol also in section 40 it states it is an offence to supply a minor with a firearm not sell to which makes it a law which could easily go against anyone stupid enough to test it ,not good

[Fil]

Re: Is this legal

the big problem is the police .and their interpretation of an offence if one should happen and if the parents supervise the rif at home . if parents were all good ones and responsible for ther kids ,no problem .but as you know it only takes a minority to cause a problem and everyone suffers .the other problem is going to be unscrupulous retailers selling in the same way and not giving a shit what happens afterwards. just like off licences and corner shops with alcohol

While the potential misuse of RIFs is an issue it's kinda going outside the original discussion of the legality of Xsite's conduct. What the parents get upto in their own home or what other retailers do isn't really of any consequence to whether or not Xsite are breaching the law or not.

also in section 40 it states it is an offence to supply a minor with a firearm not sell to which makes it a law which could easily go against anyone stupid enough to test it ,not good

No it doesn't. The section is entitled 'Supplying imitation firearms to minors' but it's clear that the offences are for the purchase of an IF by a minor and the sale of an IF to a minor. It doesn't cover anything else.

[Beef]

Re: Is this legal

I think xsite have done their homework and are not breaking the Law. Thats my opinion and its as valid as anybodies who is not a Judge.

[andre the giant]

Re: Is this legal

I think there is a lot of over reaction to this topic. It is a shame that most of you jump on the bandwagon of report them, report them..

If what Tim said is true about speaking with the home office, then this shows that he has done his homework, and I dare say he would have kept the correspondence safe, in case of being reported.

Sas Scott: you had a gun bought for you and when you realised it broke the law, did you hand your gun back and ask for a refund?? No ?? Why ?? Instead you say the gun was sold!! Well mr I'm so clever as a 17yr old, your parents don't have a valid defence and neither do you because you don't have a Ukara number, you only have a junior membership,So how did you manage to sell it?? Remember the VCRA ?? so before making brash statements think first... It's not about you being under 18 either!! Oh wait yes it is in this instance

If you all want to report this site go ahead, just shows what a tight knit community we don't have, has anybody contacted the site via telephone to discuss the matter and feedback what was said instead??

As for under 18's using a RIF on site? Is there any issue?? Ive seen over 18's use two tones..

I'm surprised our lawyer forum members aren't jumping up and down with this one, we can get a legal opinion that's straight off Wikipedia( you know who you are Batman)

Although the junior scheme sounds like it's bordering on business suicide, if the seller is registered to sell, and he is selling to an adult who is buying his child a gift tom play a game, there is a legal defence there, Ukara register is for retail sellers and not buyers, all our membership numbers do is validate we pass the criteria to register with ukara database, a store could still refuse me even if I have a valid number!!
The fact that X site are paying close attention to junior members is good news, I know people who look well over 18 and could easily buy a RIF without any questions being asked, yes it would be fraud but if they only use the same site and bring their guns onto site in locked box, who is really going to know??

So many of you complaining about how this is a risk to our sport, I tell you what's more of a risk, your complaining.. I hear your on Saturday and Sunday mornings doing exactly the same thing.. Shut up and let the legal ppl deal with it

[Mace]

I hesitated before responding to this thread because any rational debate seems to break down into a slanging march so quickly on here which i find so sad. However I will admit that I wasn't an airsofter when many faced losing their sport due to the VCRA and accept that even the slightest threat of losing it must raise strong emotions.

The reality is that all bits of legislation only really become clear through case law - it's why lawyers carry massive books around with them. There is no case law around airsoft and the VCRA at the moment and so there are some legitimate questions about it's interpretation.
To get case law the police will need to prosecute someone who denies wrongdoing and the case will need to be taken to a crown court for a judgement. We'll end up with a legal example along the lines of 'R v smith' where a trial judge makes a decision about how the law was meant to be interpreted. Until that happens much of the upset caused on this forum over VRCA breaches is based on pure supposition and is pointless.

I've written legislation and guidance and it's a complete nightmare to get right. What seems obvious and straightforward to you will always look like Swiss cheese to someone else and always falls subject to the law of unintended consequences anyway. The VCRA was not originally written to cover all of the issues around airsofting so has it's obvious issues which UKARA members and others have tried to clarify. The reality is that the police are not worried about under 18's or indeed anyone else running around a skirmish site with a RIF and neither am I. The Police know that said yoof would almost certainly be able to provide a defence even if not UKARA registered. I'm less sure about the xcite's decision to allow a non skirmisher adult to buy a RIF but again it is unlikely that this would raise the police hackles while the gun is only waved around a skirmish site. (otherwise rental guns would be an issue).

Xcite's scheme will only cause problems if one of the guns bought in this way is used out in the streets by an idiot - the under 18 owner or the adult purchaser. At that point the Police will be interested and will clearly ask where said idiot got the gun and xcite would need to justify their stance or be prosecuted.

In most cases an idiot waving a RIF around in the street will have no defence for their actions even if they have a defence for their ownership - the gun will be crushed and they will be prosecuted; case closed. If the idiot maintains their defence for their actions and ownership are valid the case would go to court and be tested. Only a surfeit of these open shut cases or a Mr idiot winning a case that it was 'fine for him to wave a RIF in the street because he skirmishes' would prompt ACPO to go back to the government and ask for a change of law.

If xcite are exploiting a loophole in the law to increase the number of genuine skirmishers with a well managed and transparent scheme why is everyone so upset? This poses very minimal risk of causing us issues.

What is much more risky to our freedom is the large numbers of idiots who sell to non skirmishers or who don't ask for any id or evidence of skirmishing. This is much more likely to see a RIF end up being used in an illegal manner and raise Police hackles but I don't see anyone complaining about how easy it is to sell RIFs on here without any checks on the buyer or seller?? We really need to be careful throwing stones when we live in a greenhouse.


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[No1_sonuk]

Re: Is this legal

Yes laws have been broken.If a kid got gifted a two tone M4 and he decided to paint it or replace the parts it would turn it into a RIF .Which is manufacturing a RIF . This is illegal...

Actually, "manufacturing" isn't the offence in this case. Section 36(1)(a) prohibits manufature. Section 36(1)(b) says "he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm".

It will be very interesting to see what becomes of this because tbh depending on how you interpret the meaning of the defence it's arguable that Xsite are acting within the confines of the defence. The defence basically covers the sale of RIFs for the purpose of the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities, where 'permitted activities' is the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation. Now if you're selling a RIF to a parent for the sole purpose of them allowing their child to use it at skirmishes then you could certainly put forward a case for the sale having been made for the purpose set out in the VCRA.

Every time the VCRA/"airsoft defence" debate has come up, I've kept quiet about this loophole.
In my interpretation, Xsite are correct that it is legal.
As stated, the regulation that provides the "airsoft defence" says nothing about the person buying the RIF, only that it is provided for a purpose:

Defences to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
3.—(1) It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

(2) Those purposes are—

(a)the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;
(b)the purposes of display at a permitted event..

From http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

This is one of those spirit of the law/letter of the law conflicts that is being, legally, exploited here.

If they are supplying the RIF to the parent, for the purpose of it being used in airsoft, it is, technically, legal.

That's not to say it's not extremely risky...

[starscream]

Re: Is this legal

After speaking to 2 of my friends who are both police officers, (one of whom is joining the ARU). Both have agreed that what is happening at Xsite IS illegal. As the buyer of a RIF must be a registered skirmisher, (if the parent isn't registered, they shouldn't be buying), and this junior membership is just a money making con by the site in question.

As both were off duty at the time of me asking, they've advised anyone with any concerns to contact their local police station and report the matter accordingly.

[magslap]

Re: Is this legal

bottom line = money
looks like xsite are happy to skim the edge of the law and risk the sport hoping thier loophole will bring in more money.
i might be wrong,but thats the way i read into it.